Comments on: Church Planting – The New Scam

By: Justin Kuek

Justin Kuek — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:01:15 +0000

Hi Ed,

No problems… take your time…

By the way, for your information:

1. “Ekklesia” = Called out ones
2. “Paneguris” = Gathering

Blessings,
JUSTIN

By: Ed

Ed — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:27:50 +0000

Hi Justin!

I'm in the middle of a major project so it might be several days before I can get back to you .

However, I wanted to let you know that you ARE appreciated.... As iron sharpens iron.

Blessings,

By: Justin Kuek

Justin Kuek — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:14:32 +0000

Hi Ed,

So sorry for this late reply… I was not trying to avoid you, just got too busy and never came back to check the discussion!

Yes, you are right, although I am Western trained, I am not confined to a Western world view… Here are some more thoughts:

1. You say that Jesus commands us to love opne another… and that in order to do so we need communities only found in “Churches”. I would beg to differ… The early disciples were not formed into “churches”… YET they loved one another much more than we do (they actually sold their belongings). Their community was within their Jewish religion… NOT Christianity or the local church (because there was no such thing as yet!). People are already in communities… and when saved, they should continue to follow Christ in those communities, sharing the love of God with them.
2. Ekklesia DOES NOT mean Assembly… It means “Called out Ones”. Western Christianity extends this meaning to the “local church”.
3. Jesus never talks about many churches… He only recognises ONE… We need to readjust our thinking to be in line with His. It is much more helpful to see “THE” Church (one), rather than “A” church (many)
4. Your worldview is one of the traditional Christian leader. You talk about GOING to church, DOING church, HAVING church, STARTING church… Jesus, on the other hand says, “BE the church!” We ARE the church, we do not GO to church, DO church, HAVE church, or START churches… We already ARE…. just follow Christ where you are, and you are like Yeast in your community! What could be more powerful than this?
5. Western Christianity is indeed individualistic. However, we must recognise a great paradox in Christ… The only way to get real community IS in stressing the individual! It is when and only when we INDIVIDUALLY truely follow Christ that we have REAL community. Only when I obey His command to love one another (as it applies to MY life) do I know community. Otherwise it is just a collection of people who gather on Sundays.

One of the major problems we have is that we are using Old Wineskins to keep the New Wine… Before I colour anyone’s thoughts here, please tell me what you think Jesus meant when He said this? What are the Old Wineskins?

Thanks for your honesty in having this discussion. Most other site owners would have deleted my posting as “hostile”

Love your spirit!

Blessings,
JUSTIN

By: Desta Langena Letta

Desta Langena Letta — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:59:33 +0000

Thank you all for your note and comments on the issue of false reports and exagerated numbers of converts, batisms from the mission fields and also CPMs. I beleive that, during our training to the Church Palnters it is very important to emphasize the significance of genuine repeorting .

Missionaries an and Church planters have to seriously know that God can not be honored with our false repeorts, rather He blesses our trustworthiness.

Desta

By: Matt Cain

Matt Cain — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 23:59:08 +0000

I agree that making disciples is what we are supposed to be doing Justin. It’s what Jesus commanded us to do. The trick is not over-reacting to the problems we are facing the Church. We cannot neglect the assembling of ourselves together because it is impossible to obey most of what Jesus and the Apostles taught when we are unorganized and isolated froth brothers and sisters in Christ. What most Western Christians think of as church is gathering in a building for corporate worship once a week. This is the church being expressed in a traditional sort of way, but often people fail to realize that small gatherings of obedient disciples who love Jesus are also expressions of the church.

In order for these small kind of gatherings to obediently reproduce disciples, they must be strategic and highly organized in their approach to also reproduce healthy fellowships. This is seen in Scripture as Paul pours heavily into Timothy who then raises up other Christian leaders who also reproduce new leaders (2 Timothy 2:2). With out this intentional strategy that Jesus modeled for his boys, the early church would not have been as successful in multiplying as it was. They simply followed the Master. Jesus can and will continue to grow his church both in size and in quality but we have to cooperated with his way of doing things. The more intentional we are at cooperating with the Lord on this, I believe the sooner we will see growth.

As for the sin of lying that is pervading is being discussed here, those involved need to stop (repent), ask God for forgiveness, and then do what ever the Holy Spirit leads them to do to restore honesty and truth to the work church planting movement.

A a fellow brother in Christ,

Matt

By: George Patterson

George Patterson — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:02:05 +0000

Bloating statistics seriously damages house church movements. God chastises His children when they lie or yield to the greed that often motivates the lies. Also, Satan uses the falsehoods to give traditional church leaders an excuse for not following New Testament guidelines when they organize the Body of Christ.

By: Ed

Ed — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:33:23 +0000

Hi Justin,

Thanks for the comment. It’s really appreciated and adds to the discussion.

You are absolutely correct. Jesus said he would build His church.

If every believer would just do their job and obey Jesus, then there would be no problem.

Here’s one of the commands of Christ – John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” This is only one of the many “one another” commands. Loving one another, and the other one another commands, cannot be done from a distance. It requires proximity. A closeness. Communion (I use this purposefully).

Part of obedience to Christ is the fellowship of the saints. The ekklesia (“assembly”) is this gathering. Commonly known as church. That’s why in the beginning of the church we see these gatherings forming spontaneously (Acts 2:37-47). Everywhere that Paul went, we see ekklesia forming. Paul references “the church” of various areas. Not a single local church, but many house churches – family units.

A western mindset (I am not suggesting that you are of this persuasion), assumes a very individualistic relationship to Jesus. While there are parts of this, there are very strong communal aspects that should not be neglected. 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 13, 1 Cor 14, all speak of this communal aspect of our relationship with Jesus. The God head is the perfect example of our communal relationship. Ecclesiastes 4:12 says “Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.” (NIV). This is an understanding that we are not to be lone rangers standing by ourselves. However, we are the community of Christ (universal and local). We are the ekklesia against whom the gates of hell cannot stand.

Perhaps a definition of church that we use. “A church is where two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus to obey all of his commands in love.” A church fulfills parts of the commands of Christ that cannot be fulfilled by the individual alone.

Acts 2: 37 – 47 is very clear to me. The disciples did their part, individually and corporately and God did his part — “And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (NIV)

In the work we do, we are working against a very Western method of leaving merely individuals separated from their communities. Instead, we are working to establish communities of believers everywhere, just as Paul and the apostles did. It is this community of believers who will be able to have great impact on their communities. It is from this ekklesia of believers that we hope and pray, “This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.” – Acts 19:10 (NIV)

Blessings to you,

By: Justin Kuek

Justin Kuek — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:30:17 +0000

As long as we rely on a LOCAL chruch and Church Planting model, this is the best that we can expect! When will we learn that Jesus said HE will build HIS church? Show me where there is a command or even an encouragement to “start a church”? You cannot find one. Let’s do what Jesus told us to do – Make Disciples; and leave church building to Him!

By: Bruce G

Bruce G — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:48:23 +0000

This whole issue of numbers is a real snare for many reasons. It tars some good movements and ministries with the brush of suspected inflation of salvations, miracles, churches, etc.
There is increasing suspicion of all numbers. Numbers were frequently
given in the book of Acts, but now there is so much temptation to push the numbers to gain
accolades, reputation, funding, etc. This is an under-appreciated problem that seems
to be getting bigger.

I know of an Asian ministry that keeps an ‘auditor’ to travel around and do spot checks
in places where they support folks. This actually works well, and keeps people more honest.

By: galencurrah

galencurrah — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:21:00 +0000

That makes sense, for several reasons:

a) House Church planting was the NT method, and many missionaries
have not followed the apostles’ example.

b) Missionaries themselves “over-report” continually, to keep their
own support packages bloated with unearned dollars.

c) Some CPMs actually do sweep in 1000s of new believers, to the
chagrin of conventional Kingdom workers who work so hard at
maintaining good, fruitless structures.

d) Satan and unsaved authorities hate both conventional churches
and CPMs, and they want both of them to slander and devour
each other.

e) If unproductive missionaries and political churchmen lash back
at anything, then it probably is doing something right.

f) Satan’s operatives live for power, sex and money, and milking
Western Christians for their dollars for any cause works well.